Theology? On MY blog? It's...

[bliumchik]

Stan says:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7287071.stm
maggiebloome says:
bah, catholics
maggiebloome says:
okay, paradox:
maggiebloome says:
how can anyone believe in heaven and hell at the same time? observe:
maggiebloome says:
1. Presume the existence of hell
maggiebloome says:
2. Presume the existence of heaven, and that virtuous souls go there.
maggiebloome says:
3. Most people would define a virtuous soul as someone who can't stand other people's suffering.
maggiebloome says:
4. So, how can heaven be "paradise" if everyone there knows that billions of their fellow human beings are suffering horribly for all eternity? What kind of saint would consider that heaven?
maggiebloome says:
Therefore: If hell exists, then anyone for whom heaven is, in fact, heavenly, does not deserve to be there.
Stan says:
hmm
Stan says:
unless catholics believe that someone who has lived a sinful life is deserved of their suffering
Stan says:
OR
Stan says:
that once you hit heaven your concern for other human beings is no longer needed
maggiebloome says:
But considering some of the fairly minor reasons for catholics to go to hell...
maggiebloome says:
human compassion has never been bounded by "deserving" rhetoric
maggiebloome says:
hell is supposed to be infinite suffering
maggiebloome says:
and you can go there for lying to your mother and then getting hit by a car before you can find a priest to confess to
maggiebloome says:
so that's unlikely
maggiebloome says:
which leaves your second proposition
maggiebloome says:
...that your compassion is surgically removed in the afterlife? what the hell?
Stan says:
well is it really that strange compared to the rest of it?
Stan says:
ive never really understood heaven
Stan says:
are there other people?
Stan says:
do they have free will?
maggiebloome says:
I don't think anyone really thought that through
Stan says:
if they do, what if they get pissed off and ruin your heaver "experience"
maggiebloome says:
they were just like "heaven is really good yall AND DON'T BE BAD OR ALL THIS DESCRIPTIVE LANGUAGE WILL HAPPEN TO YOU. But if you're good, heaven! It's uh... good."
maggiebloome says:
I'm not sure if it's even described at any point in the bible
maggiebloome says:
hmm, actually think I'll look that up

(LJ-ify your IMs before pasting!)

I did. The Sceptic's Annotated Bible is handy like that. Turns out they pretty much don't ever tell you what's actually in the Kingdom of Heaven, either assuming everyone already knew or deliberately leaving it blank so people could fill in whatever they like best. One reference obliquely suggests they thought of it as a second Garden of Eden, but that's it. (The apostles all sound like really canny politicians, by the way, when you translate the Ye Olde Speake. They were probably wasted on a bunch of farmers, seed metaphors and all.) So basically, my paradox is dependent on people believing that heaven is a place where you go and everything is perfect, and the bible doesn't say that. The bible doesn't say heaven is anything except The Sky for several whole books, and by the time it does it's mostly concerned with telling you how to get there and just assuming you want to. I have to assume the whole thing was made up by popes.

Has anyone read Job: A Comedy Of Justice by Heinlein? That's basically got my point: the dude gets to heaven and his One True Love isn't there, so it isn't really heaven for him. Great book, also. This has been your Midnight Philosophy Radio for this evening. Conclusion: Christians are odd.

Comments

DrJon opens his mouth again

[drjon.livejournal.com]

Love the bit where Job's saviour is the "Bad Guy". And the bit where he's Muslim, but his daughter's wiccan. ;}P>

Theologically speaking, Heaven is a soul-state. You're "in God's presence" (which is funny to me, because if God is anywhere, then It's everywhere, but I guess it's a soul thing). If sin (which, incidentally, means to "miss the mark") "stains" your soul (and we'll leave the comparison with bedsheets alone), you separate yourself from God. Hell is just being totally separated from God. I imagine the fire and brimstone schtick is just to sell it to the punters.

Of course, as a Discordian, I don't believe a word of it. Except for Limbo. We own that. (http://tinyurl.com/3a4l7a) Hail Eris!

Re: DrJon opens his mouth again

[maggiebloome.livejournal.com]

Right, right, so I guess their assumption is that if you're that close to god's presence it sort of drowns out all your gooey feelings for the near-miss sinners?

Really, if you're going to discard everything that's there to sell it to the punters, you'll leave the church standing in the street clutching a pillowcase in front of its unmentionables. Er, metaphorically speaking. Although...

Re: DrJon opens his mouth again

[drjon.livejournal.com]

Well, theologically speaking, Heaven isn't heaven (see above). At least, Judeo-Christian Heaven isn't. Muslim Heaven may be heaven -- my Sufi Master told me once, but he was spinning too quickly and the words got drowned out. I understand there are staff in Muslim Heaven to assist you with whatever tricky problems arise. Possibly tricky problems involve melons. Communists don't get a Heaven, they already used theirs up. And Athiests don't get one either, unless they got smart and piggybacked on the Zen Heaven while they had a chance to do so. The other Buddhists get a Heaven, but it's generally discouraged as being Bad For You, so when they get there they ignore it until it goes away.

Anyway, the Christians see Heaven as a State of Grace. Kinda like the start of a meal, maybe. So I guess you're too busy being Graceful on account of being in the Divine Immanence to notice that your bong-chugging porn-loving mates aren't around. Or maybe it's all the glare from the Divine Immanence. Scripture is silent on the matter.

Re: DrJon opens his mouth again

[maggiebloome.livejournal.com]

Ah. But the concept that really sticks with people appears to be the one drummed in during childhood, and since children are pretty much the ultimate Punters that's pretty much brimstone vs. icecream and no chores, isn't it? I mean, Scripture, psssh.

Oh hey, there's a Sufi at my uni. what the hell IS it? They wouldn't say.

Re: DrJon opens his mouth again

[drjon.livejournal.com]

You know how Zen's kinda Buddhist, but arose from Daoist and, later, Shinto influences?

Sufi's kinda like that with Islam. Only different.

Re: DrJon opens his mouth again

[maggiebloome.livejournal.com]

That explains EVERYTHING, thanks so much.

Re: DrJon opens his mouth again

[drjon.livejournal.com]

You had to be there.

Re: DrJon opens his mouth again

[maggiebloome.livejournal.com]

PS is there any truth to the rumours that Discordia has hired the Buddha to redecorate the new acquisition?

Re: DrJon opens his mouth again

[drjon.livejournal.com]

He was keen for the contract, but we went in-house: Rick Griffin got the job.

[mrbehemoth.livejournal.com]

In my experience, a large percentage of Christians would NOT define a virtuous person as one who can't stand others' suffering; in fact, they seem to positively revel in the idea.

I've seen many believers make comments of the "ha-ha, enjoy your time in HELL, loser!" variety to atheists.